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Post by Kirby-Red Sox on Apr 22, 2016 12:12:35 GMT -5
I like every two season ,if the team isn.t as competitive in this time and my budget and fan base drop of at least I won,t be there Till every thing has gotten beyond repair, going to be an interesting season
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Post by wdoupis on Apr 22, 2016 12:41:27 GMT -5
man this is a rough one - I really want to support this league (and especially you Anthony) but this change is one I just can't get behind. Apologies for the long reply but I want to explain both why I think this is wrong and why I care so much! I'll say again that I know these decisions are being made because you guys think it's for the good of the league - after all why would Thomas sign up for going into a division where he'll lose 90 games every year? I don't envy you in running the league as I'm sure it feels like you can't win sometimes - such are the joys of leadership. From my point of view though you're wrong and ultimately this change will screw the league up way more than it is already. why do I think you're wrong?Firstly, the whole ' ask the league what it thinks then ignore the responses thing' is really frustrating. Ultimately the best leagues are for the GMs and by the GMs and the fact that the solution you guys came up with wasn't even one of the ones we got to vote on/ discuss makes it feel like our opinions don't matter. Personally I think putting hard salary cap in place in 2027 and giving everyone two seasons to make tough choices about contracts would have solved the disparity issue very quickly - but no one is interested in my opinion. Why should our opinions matter when we're not the ones running the league? Well, playing successfully and competitively in a good online OOTP league requires a ton of time and dedication. It's not just the exporting thing, or contributing on the forums but the best GMs think on every small part of the game. I have fallen asleep wondering whether I should bat Buchanan ahead of Ramos or not, every deal I make takes a ton of thought, and I've especially spent ages working on making sure that the financial side of my franchise supports our constant 'win now' focus (I have spreadsheets!) I can't tell you the times my wife has laughed at me retyping another 'Tigers season preview' article when I have a lot more 'important' things to do. Why is this a terrible change? As with most comprise decisions the one you came up with is stupid. (I tried to think of a better word there - but I couldn't). The consequence will be that some really shitty teams will make the post season and really good teams don't. A sports league is the ultimate 'meritocracy' - the best win, the worst lose, the middle tries to beat the best - everyone tries to improve. There are some teams in the lowest division who would struggle to beat some of the better AAA teams. Whose fault is this disparity? It's the GMs fault. I appreciate that 'unicorn' players and bad contracts aren't a good thing - but ultimately we are all playing the same game and as I mentioned before plenty of good GMs have proven that they can be successful even when the cards they were initially dealt weren't the best. So some shitty teams make the post season and get absolutely crushed by the best teams. GMs with bad teams will be rewarded. Then there the 'middling' teams or teams who are trying to compete with the best (Yankees and Red who have already commented fall into that bucket - but there are plenty of others). Those teams are can now only aspire to be the best in an average division. Even if they make the post season (which I'm sure they will) they are effectively aiming to be a mid sized fish in a below average pond. Isn't the idea of competing in OOTP to try and beat the best? On the flip side of the coin this change is clearly punishing the best teams. I'll use myself as an example here - but this is the same for all the good teams. I'm in a competitive division and I enjoy my rivalry with the Royals and White Sox every year. In recent years I've had the best of that rivalry. Now because I've created a winning franchise (based on a lot of work and being good at this game) I have to play all of the other best teams and my chances of reaching the post season are roughly equal to the Cleveland Indians? How is that a healthy competitive environment? Am I only thinking of myself? Yes and no - I'm pissed that by building one of the best teams I'm now at a disadvantage, and I'm pissed that bad teams make the post season but I'm more frustrated because I really enjoy playing in this league and I think I'm seeing it being ruined with the best intentions. The long term health of the league is defined by the GMs you have playing and as far as I know nobody was quitting because of disparities between teams? They're quitting now - so by definition these changes are not healthy. I get the whole 'we'll try this for a couple of seasons' thing - but we brought in scouting, ratings changes, no draft trading etc' with the same intention and haven't given them more than a season to see if they're working. Does that mean those changes failed? Does it mean that we're going to reverse those changes? Trying to work out what all this means for me and this league and I did the 'pros' and 'cons' of sticking around. Ultimately I think sticking around will turn me into a sour GM always saying ' I told you so' when things go wrong and getting even more frustrated by these changes than I already am. I've seen those kind of GMs in other leagues and they're dicks! I don't want to be a dick. I was one of the founding members of the league who left because I thought the last commish was making some horrible decisions. I came back because of Anthony and hope I added something to the league while I was here - but I think it's time for me to find a new league. Thanks to all the GMs and Thomas/ Anthony for running the league - and I really hope I'm completely wrong about this stuff and the SBL goes from strength to strength. I agree with all of this pretty much. I do hope the league works out if this is what you guys want but it makes no sense to me. With the smart rules you guys put in place and the unicorns getting older I think the steps taken will fix itself and good GMs will rise to the top. One of the worst 5 times SHOULD NOT make the playoffs in any league ever. I am only one season in so I get my voice is not too important but this just doesn't make sense. If this is the route we take I simply have to leave. I do wish you guys the best of luck. I think the commishes are awesome and extremely dedicated so thank you for all the work you do.
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Post by Anthony_TwinsGM on Apr 22, 2016 12:49:24 GMT -5
man this is a rough one - I really want to support this league (and especially you Anthony) but this change is one I just can't get behind. Apologies for the long reply but I want to explain both why I think this is wrong and why I care so much! I'll say again that I know these decisions are being made because you guys think it's for the good of the league - after all why would Thomas sign up for going into a division where he'll lose 90 games every year? I don't envy you in running the league as I'm sure it feels like you can't win sometimes - such are the joys of leadership. From my point of view though you're wrong and ultimately this change will screw the league up way more than it is already. why do I think you're wrong?Firstly, the whole ' ask the league what it thinks then ignore the responses thing' is really frustrating. Ultimately the best leagues are for the GMs and by the GMs and the fact that the solution you guys came up with wasn't even one of the ones we got to vote on/ discuss makes it feel like our opinions don't matter. Personally I think putting hard salary cap in place in 2027 and giving everyone two seasons to make tough choices about contracts would have solved the disparity issue very quickly - but no one is interested in my opinion. Why should our opinions matter when we're not the ones running the league? Well, playing successfully and competitively in a good online OOTP league requires a ton of time and dedication. It's not just the exporting thing, or contributing on the forums but the best GMs think on every small part of the game. I have fallen asleep wondering whether I should bat Buchanan ahead of Ramos or not, every deal I make takes a ton of thought, and I've especially spent ages working on making sure that the financial side of my franchise supports our constant 'win now' focus (I have spreadsheets!) I can't tell you the times my wife has laughed at me retyping another 'Tigers season preview' article when I have a lot more 'important' things to do. Why is this a terrible change? As with most comprise decisions the one you came up with is stupid. (I tried to think of a better word there - but I couldn't). The consequence will be that some really shitty teams will make the post season and really good teams don't. A sports league is the ultimate 'meritocracy' - the best win, the worst lose, the middle tries to beat the best - everyone tries to improve. There are some teams in the lowest division who would struggle to beat some of the better AAA teams. Whose fault is this disparity? It's the GMs fault. I appreciate that 'unicorn' players and bad contracts aren't a good thing - but ultimately we are all playing the same game and as I mentioned before plenty of good GMs have proven that they can be successful even when the cards they were initially dealt weren't the best. So some shitty teams make the post season and get absolutely crushed by the best teams. GMs with bad teams will be rewarded. Then there the 'middling' teams or teams who are trying to compete with the best (Yankees and Red who have already commented fall into that bucket - but there are plenty of others). Those teams are can now only aspire to be the best in an average division. Even if they make the post season (which I'm sure they will) they are effectively aiming to be a mid sized fish in a below average pond. Isn't the idea of competing in OOTP to try and beat the best? On the flip side of the coin this change is clearly punishing the best teams. I'll use myself as an example here - but this is the same for all the good teams. I'm in a competitive division and I enjoy my rivalry with the Royals and White Sox every year. In recent years I've had the best of that rivalry. Now because I've created a winning franchise (based on a lot of work and being good at this game) I have to play all of the other best teams and my chances of reaching the post season are roughly equal to the Cleveland Indians? How is that a healthy competitive environment? Am I only thinking of myself? Yes and no - I'm pissed that by building one of the best teams I'm now at a disadvantage, and I'm pissed that bad teams make the post season but I'm more frustrated because I really enjoy playing in this league and I think I'm seeing it being ruined with the best intentions. The long term health of the league is defined by the GMs you have playing and as far as I know nobody was quitting because of disparities between teams? They're quitting now - so by definition these changes are not healthy. I get the whole 'we'll try this for a couple of seasons' thing - but we brought in scouting, ratings changes, no draft trading etc' with the same intention and haven't given them more than a season to see if they're working. Does that mean those changes failed? Does it mean that we're going to reverse those changes? Trying to work out what all this means for me and this league and I did the 'pros' and 'cons' of sticking around. Ultimately I think sticking around will turn me into a sour GM always saying ' I told you so' when things go wrong and getting even more frustrated by these changes than I already am. I've seen those kind of GMs in other leagues and they're dicks! I don't want to be a dick. I was one of the founding members of the league who left because I thought the last commish was making some horrible decisions. I came back because of Anthony and hope I added something to the league while I was here - but I think it's time for me to find a new league. Thanks to all the GMs and Thomas/ Anthony for running the league - and I really hope I'm completely wrong about this stuff and the SBL goes from strength to strength. I agree with all of this pretty much. I do hope the league works out if this is what you guys want but it makes no sense to me. With the smart rules you guys put in place and the unicorns getting older I think the steps taken will fix itself and good GMs will rise to the top. One of the worst 5 times SHOULD NOT make the playoffs in any league ever. I am only one season in so I get my voice is not too important but this just doesn't make sense. If this is the route we take I simply have to leave. I do wish you guys the best of luck. I think the commishes are awesome and extremely dedicated so thank you for all the work you do. In my test one of those "5 worst" had 92 wins. I thought having a division winner would give incentive to those teams to NOT try and lose games but to win and make the playoffs. Make the playoffs = revenue boost.
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Post by Anthony_TwinsGM on Apr 22, 2016 12:57:28 GMT -5
Its a shame you guys dont want to try and see it work out. Already bashing that it wont work without actually seeing it in action. Like I said, no hard feelings and well go our separate ways. .
If anyone else feels they cant get behind this change let us know.
For those of you that are staying, we took over SBL with 13 or 14 members so I have no reason to believe that we will have any trouble recruiting and getting the league full again.
Cardinals, Padres, Tigers, and Mets are the current vacancies. I expect another one or two so well get on the OOTP Boards and start recruiting soon.
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Post by jdnidle on Apr 22, 2016 13:17:31 GMT -5
Can someone give me a cliffnotes version of the change? Sorry, just a little confused and want to understand what the change is that some are saying they are going to leave because of.
If it is the realignment, what I don't get, why change? We use real teams and real players, so why not keep the divisions, etc. like real life?
Can someone tell me what is so broken now that realigning the divisions will supposedly fix?
Like Billy (wdoupis), I know I am new here, but I have ran another league, set very similar to this one and am curious what the guys at the top feel is so broken that a realignment every few seasons will fix?
Me personally, I don't mind a realignment if it is a one time thing, then they stay. But divisions are about building a rivalry and working your butt off to figure out how to get to the top of your division. If you are going to change that, basically every 3 seasons, to me, that does not interest me at all either.
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Post by jdnidle on Apr 22, 2016 13:23:22 GMT -5
And to clarify, it is not about not wanting to try it and see if it will work out, I am sure it will, but you are talking about a completely different system than any baseball as it is played in real life today. I play OOTP for it's simulation reasons. I like that most of the game is like real life. I understand there are some shortcomings due to the way certain things are programmed, but I enjoy it for it's involvement and the way it makes me feel like I am really running my own baseball team.
The divisions realigning every few seasons, in my opinion, is not something that interests me.
I am curious though, as Sam of the Tigers asked, why not post a poll and then listen to the masses? The poll you do have up, has 11 votes to keep the league as it is. 4 votes for expansion and realignment 4 votes for realignment without expansion 3 votes for rework financials, etc.
I think it is pretty clear that the majority wants it left alone.
I will try it for this season and see how it goes, but not really thinking this is something I will like.
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Post by Anthony_TwinsGM on Apr 22, 2016 13:40:37 GMT -5
Were 13 seasons into SBL.. I dont understand why we need to stay with an outdated MLB Model. Were not major league baseball. We dont have travel restrictions, we dont have a players association. So why not try and change it up to create parity and help balance the league out??
Im in a lose lose situation. If we touch financials to get rid of these extremely team friendly contracts, people quit. We try and adjust divisions to create some parity, people quit.
Im trying to do whats best for the overall health of the league. I'm glad all of you think nothing is wrong but im sorry MULTIPLE teams winning divisions by 13+ games, there is no competitiveness. 1/3 of the league trying to compete while the rest is in rebuild mode. Thats not good for the league at all! So why cant we try something different because status quo, just doesnt work in fixing our issues.
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Post by thomas on Apr 22, 2016 13:50:17 GMT -5
And to clarify, it is not about not wanting to try it and see if it will work out, I am sure it will, but you are talking about a completely different system than any baseball as it is played in real life today. I play OOTP for it's simulation reasons. I like that most of the game is like real life. I understand there are some shortcomings due to the way certain things are programmed, but I enjoy it for it's involvement and the way it makes me feel like I am really running my own baseball team. The divisions realigning every few seasons, in my opinion, is not something that interests me. I am curious though, as Sam of the Tigers asked, why not post a poll and then listen to the masses? The poll you do have up, has 11 votes to keep the league as it is. 4 votes for expansion and realignment 4 votes for realignment without expansion 3 votes for rework financials, etc. I think it is pretty clear that the majority wants it left alone. I will try it for this season and see how it goes, but not really thinking this is something I will like. If you add up the 4, 4, and 3 you also get 11. So 50% of the people wanted us to do something and 50% didn't. The majority poll argument is pointless.
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Post by marcus.dodgers on Apr 22, 2016 13:51:32 GMT -5
I'm behind you guys. I like the hell out of this league. It's fun and worth the time to me. I also appreciate having someone who cares about competitiveness. To me that's what this is about. I've been in this league 4 seasons embarking on my fifth. I've almost been associated with it for a year in real time. I hope you continue to refine the league.
I wouldn't be shocked if in 6 months the landscape has changed enough to where we revert back.
Excited about 2025.
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Post by Anthony_TwinsGM on Apr 22, 2016 13:52:29 GMT -5
Can someone give me a cliffnotes version of the change? Sorry, just a little confused and want to understand what the change is that some are saying they are going to leave because of. If it is the realignment, what I don't get, why change? We use real teams and real players, so why not keep the divisions, etc. like real life? Can someone tell me what is so broken now that realigning the divisions will supposedly fix? Like Billy (wdoupis), I know I am new here, but I have ran another league, set very similar to this one and am curious what the guys at the top feel is so broken that a realignment every few seasons will fix? Me personally, I don't mind a realignment if it is a one time thing, then they stay. But divisions are about building a rivalry and working your butt off to figure out how to get to the top of your division. If you are going to change that, basically every 3 seasons, to me, that does not interest me at all either. There is no current rivalries and in online leagues there isnt a "hatred" that youd see in real life like Red Sox/Yankees, Cubs/Cardinals. With realignment of the divisions, perennial playoff teams will be facing one another 19 times in a season. Thats how I can see rivalries being created. Financials are broken and people threatend to quit if changes were made. I had the idea to expand and that "wasnt realistic" even though MLB has started hinting at it from time to time.
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Post by Anthony_TwinsGM on Apr 22, 2016 13:53:09 GMT -5
I'm behind you guys. I like the hell out of this league. It's fun and worth the time to me. I also appreciate having someone who cares about competitiveness. To me that's what this is about. I've been in this league 4 seasons embarking on my fifth. I've almost been associated with it for a year in real time. I hope you continue to refine the league. I wouldn't be shocked if in 6 months the landscape has changed enough to where we revert back. Excited about 2025. Thank you Marcus. I wish others would share your opinions.
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Post by Garrett - Brewers GM on Apr 22, 2016 13:54:57 GMT -5
Anthony please don't second guess yourself. You are 100% correct about this league needing to be more competitive and this divisional realignment will do it. I also think people are confusing that this divisional alignment is not intended to fix unicorn players. There have been no changes to unicorn player ratings or contracts because that was also a majority decision. You guys definately listened to the league by stopping short of making changes to these players
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Post by mikejk on Apr 22, 2016 13:58:46 GMT -5
And to clarify, it is not about not wanting to try it and see if it will work out, I am sure it will, but you are talking about a completely different system than any baseball as it is played in real life today. I play OOTP for it's simulation reasons. I like that most of the game is like real life. I understand there are some shortcomings due to the way certain things are programmed, but I enjoy it for it's involvement and the way it makes me feel like I am really running my own baseball team. The divisions realigning every few seasons, in my opinion, is not something that interests me. I am curious though, as Sam of the Tigers asked, why not post a poll and then listen to the masses? The poll you do have up, has 11 votes to keep the league as it is. 4 votes for expansion and realignment 4 votes for realignment without expansion 3 votes for rework financials, etc. I think it is pretty clear that the majority wants it left alone. I will try it for this season and see how it goes, but not really thinking this is something I will like. If you add up the 4, 4, and 3 you also get 11. So 50% of the people wanted us to do something and 50% didn't. The majority poll argument is pointless. I'm sorry but this is idiotic, some were voting for financial changes and some were voting for realignment.
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Post by JaysGMSteve on Apr 22, 2016 14:03:15 GMT -5
The commishes have to do what they feel is best, even if we don't agree. Because they will burn out if they are running a league they believe is destroyed or headed down the path to destruction. And despite what others have said its more about them than the rest of us. Why? because without them the league doesn't run, there could be 25 active GM's but without the commishes, it doesn't matter, I've been in leagues with 85%+ active GM's with 50+ years of in game history, 10+ years of RL history going back to single digit versions of OOTP, but once the league becomes broken or the commish burns out, the league is done, its as simple as that, no amount of active GM changes that, and even if you end up with a new commish, that doesn't fix all the problems cause the new guy comes in and has to make all the decisions on the same problems that the previous one did. And you're dealing with 25+ people all with different ideas and solutions, no one will be happy with everything ever.
I respect anyone who doesn't agree and leaves, It's not a solution I ever would have picked, but I'm going to stick it out cause I love this game and I love trying new things. If you are upset cause we're moving away from the current major league set-up, reality is only what's in the now but when you think about it, what is reality now would have seemed like fantasy in the past, who knows MLB could actually look like this in several years, I doubt it, but you never know. Imagine travelling back in time to the mid 80's, imagine telling a baseball fan about, daily interleague play, wild cards, players getting full season suspensions for PED's, Luxury Tax, rules on collisions at 2nd and home, you'd probably get the same stunned look as you may have had if you don't like these new changes.
I'm not advocating for change, because I voted to keep things the same, but Anthony and Thomas are not harsh dictators, they're two guys who care about this league and what's best for it long term. A majority doesn't make it the right decision, just the most popular.
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Post by macmckenzie on Apr 22, 2016 14:04:34 GMT -5
Were 13 seasons into SBL.. I dont understand why we need to stay with an outdated MLB Model. Were not major league baseball. We dont have travel restrictions, we dont have a players association. So why not try and change it up to create parity and help balance the league out?? Im in a lose lose situation. If we touch financials to get rid of these extremely team friendly contracts, people quit. We try and adjust divisions to create some parity, people quit. Im trying to do whats best for the overall health of the league. I'm glad all of you think nothing is wrong but im sorry MULTIPLE teams winning divisions by 13+ games, there is no competitiveness. 1/3 of the league trying to compete while the rest is in rebuild mode. Thats not good for the league at all! So why cant we try something different because status quo, just doesnt work in fixing our issues. Anthony I think there are off telling statements in that post- Were not Major League Baseball- The realism is what attracts many of us to OOTP online leagues in the first place. And within the OOTP community there are many choices as far the different types of leagues that we can choose to play in. Everyone here choose a league that formatted the same as MLB when we chose to join the SBL. If we were looking for something different we would have chosen a different league. I'm glad all of think nothing is wrong - I lot of us (the majority) don't believe we have dire issues and are enjoying the game just as it is. Sometimes there are season's where there not any tight pennant races. Also the Braves and Reds proved that new teams are emerging and are able to make the playoffs. Just because we had back to back LA series doesn't mean we are destined for that the next 10 years. I believe if we would play out another year under the existing rules we would see teams like Oakland and Pittsburgh and probably a few others I haven't noticed step up to contention. The bottom line is- had we not made these changes we would not be losing Good Active GMs
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